Cesar Millan, Abuse is Not A Training Tool

by Mary Haight on March 21, 2011

A dog ate Cesar Millan's book

Image by Carmyarmyofme via Flickr

Update: The video has been wiped for copyright claims-again. I imagine it will resurface at some point. Update 4/1: new link to video posted below with thanks to Vicky:)

I don’t know how this video at the end of the post passes as “training” in any circles, nor why National Geographic would let these examples of abuse stand as acceptable dog training practice, compounding the wrong by allowing them to be aired for public consumption. Money changes everything?

The video shows Millan, over and over again with different dogs, kicking them. Millan says he doesn’t “kick” the dog but uses his foot to distract/correct–the sounds or extreme movement coming from most of the dogs leads me to believe otherwise.  When he is facing the back end of the dog I see that kick going to the groin. Thanks to Steve Dale at his Chicago Now blog for bringing this up and for the video.

This is not science, it is absolutely not an acceptable training practice, in fact it has nothing to do with training and everything to do with abusive practices. Like the kick to the snout of dog where an editing job had to be done…but you can see the after effects as the dogs head lifts sharply upwards and he backs away. 

Where are the watchdog groups to prevent cruelty to animals?  Why have they not stepped up to put a stop to it – at least make their voices, and ours, heard loud and clear at National Geographic – even if it is not technically a film. Did I miss the announcement of a lawsuit? Is there a current petition somewhere?  Many vets and all positive reinforcement trainers take a negative position on these wrong-headed methods for correcting dogs. Why is this kind of abuse of animals on television at all, and being supported by National Geographic?   

I would never allow anyone to do this to my dog in the name of “teaching” him anything. Would you? (Thanks to jimmylovesdogs at you-tube for uploading this – again!) And since this video has been taken down at YouTube, here’s a link to another (sorry, it’s not open to embedding) from reader Vikidobe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSkYVwZKMSs

See Dr. Sophia Yin’s post on the dominance controversy for more

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78 comments
dallas
dallas

oh please , more then half the dogs Millan works with would have been beaten -muzzled, caged and put down if not for him, I see more confused dogs get straightend out on his show, rather then them getting passed around and around and around into new homes because no one wants them with behavior problems= he is not beating them and is not confusing them, I have YET to see him lose his temper, i see more dog OWNERS lose tempers and abuse the dog every day, kissy kissy woo woo doesnt cut it with some dogs, hes not any more abusive then the lame owners that let the dog get that way to start with..

Science not hype
Science not hype

I'm sorry for anyone who hasn't seen a better trainer than CM. Maybe you should try looking because there are so many of them (Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, Gail Fisher, Teoti Anderson, and on and on and on... None of these people have to use these techniques, and I guarantee they are more successful than CM, who is not a PhD, DVM, or any other kind of expert - just a guy who has been around a lot of dogs, which describes a lot of us). Kicking an aggressive dog is not going to calm him down, it is going to make him worse. There is a dog in this video that is POINT IN CASE. The dog was slightly aroused until that foot hit him, and that's when he went off, not before!

vicky1clicker1tr
vicky1clicker1tr

I am uploading the CM dog kicking video to You Tube right now. go to my channel: vikidobe or I guess try new videos about CM Quick, as YT will be killing it pretty fast.

BP
BP

I myself am a huge animal rights supporter, going as far as to only eat meat that has been humanely raised, and with that said, I think it is extremely sad how many people are against Millan's training techniques. The work and rehabilitation that he does is incredible. In many of the cases on the show he is dealing with dogs that are aggressive to not just other animals but humans and their own owners as well, making them a threat to society. If Millan's training works, and it does, then I would much rather "offend" an aggressive dog and have them "suffer" a little tap to the ribs in order to be trained out of their aggressive mindset then to not want to hurt the dogs "feelings" or cause it any discomfort and have it continue being aggressive and more then likely causing SERIOUS harm to another dog or human ultimately resulting in the dog being euthanized. Millan's techniques are not inhumane and they work better then any other trainer's I have ever seen, leaving the dog in a balanced mind set in the end, not at all traumatized like many if you have assumed.

JDD
JDD

You people are idiots. He is NOT kicking these dogs! He works with aggressive dogs. Obviously you people haven't got a clue. He is getting their attention. Breaking their concentration. That is all! Don't talk about things you know nothing about.

calmassertive
calmassertive

Here's a link to Sophia Yin and her AVSAB organization advocating killing a labradoodle for behavior problems. Her and the others' enthusiastic support no doubt extends to many an other poor dog as well. The AVSAB, which is to say, Yin, are of course huge Millan critics, since in his entire life he has never ever recommended killing a misbehaving dog. http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/sto...

calmassertive
calmassertive

(part 2 of 2) Millan's methods are the result of a lifetime of personal observation by a true genius in the field, not some books on wolves or 'the 1930s' as so many of his less-experienced critics like to claim. Twenty years and NO lawsuits, not ONE, even in today's litigious society, except for Floody Suarez, where Millan was not even present at the time and was settled by Suarez rather than most certainly lose if brought to trial. If Millan were abusing dogs as you allege then why don't ANY of his clients sue? He's certainly a very high-profile target. Could it be that no one in their right mind looks in context at how he uses his hands and feet to redirect a dog's attention as abusive? I will give you credit at least for putting these posts on your blog -- all the other people in your camp whose names I've mentioned make sure no such discussion sees the light of day. You seem like an intelligent person. One can only hope you get over this emotional aversion to aversion (positive and negative punishment are the technical terms) with which you've saddled yourself.

calmassertive
calmassertive

(part 1 of 2) I've seen the episode where Stilwell, OVER THE PHONE, tells a poor family to kill their little dog. To see the husband carrying the lifeless body of his pet out of the vet's office where the professional killer 'euthanized' the little dog was heartbreaking. Stilwell makes me vomit. I've read statements by Donaldson and Yin justifying dog-killing when their reinforcement-only approach fails to work. Yin even wrote a letter of support for behavioral-based euthanasia in the newsletter of her organization, the AVSAB. Dunbar goes so far as to say dogs aren't even pack animals. These people are all embarrassments to the dog-training profession. The misinformation that spews out of their mouths results in far more damage to well-intentioned people's dogs than any touching Millan does with his feet or hands.

kenzo_hw
kenzo_hw

Write letters to National Geopgraphic, write posts like this. It does help. CM was invited by a Danish TV station for the promotion of his tour in Denmark coming May. People complained, wrote letters and made a lot of noise. The Danish TV station did air their show, but changed the topic. As it turned out some of the training methods of CM are indeed illegal in Denmark and are considered animal abuse. The show shed its light on this fact instead. Most likely due to all this negative publicity CM cancelled his May tour to Denmark.

kenzo_hw
kenzo_hw

Write letters to National Geopgraphic, write posts like this. It does help. CM was invited by a Danish TV station for the promotion of his tour in Denmark coming May. People complained, wrote letters and made a lot of noise. The Danish TV station did air their show, but changed the topic. As it turned out some of the training methods of CM are indeed illegal in Denmark and are considered animal abuse. The show shed its light on this fact instead. Most likely due to all this negative publicity CM cancelled his May tour to Denmark.

Kathy@YHolisticDog
Kathy@YHolisticDog

Thanks for this post, Mary. It was very painful to watch the entire video. I don't understand how anyone can call what CM does in this video...a "touch." This is kicking...this is abuse. Just look at the dogs' body language and reactions. One dog even yelped in pain. I was shocked when I saw a girl in my neighbourhood kicking her boxer in a similar fashion. Now I know where she got this from. Wake up people! Don't be taken in by this man. Your dogs have feelings! Both physical and emotional. By the way, anytime I read a local trainer's bio where they proudly advertise their support for CM and attendance at his workshops...I have NO respect for what they could possible do for anyone's dog. And some people out there think they are "dog experts" just because they've watched a series of dog whisperer dvds. The proliferation of this information is sad.

Edie
Edie

It always amazes me that we're still having to have this conversation, but we based on these comments and the regular use of terms such as dominance and pack in popular discourse, sadly we do. That link to the Canadian blog about CMs comparison of dogs with women hat you posted early on was jaw dropping. I thought nothing he could do could surprise me. I was wrong.

Jen Robinson
Jen Robinson

So? CM is well coordinated and is able to use all four of his limbs to control a dog . . . instead of just hands, which is all a clutz like me can manage. It's not like he's using steel cap boots and knocking the breath out of the dog. He takes on dogs that would scare the living daylights out of me and stays calm and assertive. How many dogs has CM saved from the green dream? I'll bet a lot more than the makers of this vid. How well do you see the world through a dog's eyes and talk the talk of a dog? Very few of us measure up to Cesar Milan For a different point of view on this, see: http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.htm...

calmassertive
calmassertive

(part 2 of 2) This pejorative use of the word 'kicking' is really quite tedious. A touch with the foot is no more a 'kick' than a touch with the hand is a 'punch'. Dogs use their mouths and paws to get each other's attention, and people use their hands and feet. The reinforcement-only crowd has no answer to the question of what to do when a bad behavior is exhibited, because their only choices are to reinforce or to ignore, neither of which are of any value when your dog is eating the neighbor. This aversion to aversion is both ironic and hypocritical, since it is these very reinforcement-only-ists who recommend giving the dogs drugs and even killing them rather than even Considering actually addressing the dog in the way it readily understands, which is to say, via touch. Charlatains such as Yin, Donaldson, Dunbar and Stilwell all blame the dog's behavior on the dog, and recommend killing the dog if it doesn't respond to their cookie-stuffing approach. The damage these frauds do, by convincing naive owners that they are experts and that in their expert opinion their dog should be drugged, killed or isolated, is Truly tragic.

calmassertive
calmassertive

(part 1 of 2) Many visits by Cesar seen on his show begin with the owners telling him how their vets, their dog-walkers, their friends, the numerous trainers they hired, etc, etc, all have tried, to no avail, to fix 'the dog'. Perhaps the author here doesn't pay attention to the show, or perhaps is just being disingenuous in failing to acknowledge the fact, but either way, it is what it is. Over and over again we see people who have been told to put their dog down due to a behavior problem that Cesar demonstrates in short order to be nothing more than a failure of the Owner to understand the psychology of their beloved pet. Over and over we see how he removes the owner, changes the mindset of the dog, then tells the owner Look, with me the problem does not exist, it's not the dog, it's the lack of knowledge of You, the owner.

Phil S Stein
Phil S Stein

I didn't watch the same video as you dogtmr obviously. If we watched the same video, your comment would only serve to display your ignorance. Any dog trainer kicked my dog in the ribs and groin like CM did in this video and it would be the last move they made for a while.

@dogalini
@dogalini

That video is so hard to watch -- harder even if you focus on the dogs' body language than if you watch CM's feet. So much fear, so much appeasement behavior, and none of it doing those poor animals one damn bit of good.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Thanks for the link, Vicky - it's very clear what he's doing in this!

Adam
Adam

I just read the this in your post and was wondering if it was a typo? "Millan's techniques are not inhumane and they work better then any other trainer's I have ever seen, leaving the dog in a balanced mind set in the end, not at all traumatized like many if you have assumed." Pretty big claims to be making I think and would love to see some physical evidence to show how "well balanced" these dogs are at the end of his "training". Often the dogs that Cesar works with, I can't bring myself to write trains, enter into a state called 'Learned Helplessness'. This is a state of mind that effectively causes the mind to shut down and accept what ever is headed their way, a boot perhaps from a swift kick? This is also an extremely dangerous mindset for an aggressive animal to find its self in. The dog will show no emotion be it joy, sadness or the big one aggression. This makes this dog a 'time bomb' and it could go off and any time. This is far more dangerous then a dog who bares his teeth and lets you know to back off. Reinforcement training can improve a dogs relationship with its owner whilst also having some excellent results for long term success. You don't have to beat a dog to break its focus or flood the dog so that it becomes numb to the fear, its a bout rehabilitation and not for the short term either. You can NOT rehabilitate a dog in a single day and expect the 'training' to last. Training takes time, weeks, months maybe and the learning should never stop it should continue on for the life of the animal. His methods are hap hazard at best.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Hi Brianah and welcome. Actually Millan's methods do not work better than any other trainers. That's a fiction of celebrity. He had done a great job of positioning himself when he started working with pitbulls years and years ago. I was very grateful for the work he did then, as there were not many people around advertising to save the lives of fighting dogs. Pitbulls have been victims every where they turn. That said, I don't believe the methods he shows on TV should be on TV. They are not replicable - he does what he does because of who he is with his particular affinity. I am not saying that he does everything wrong; that would be untrue. However, Joe Blow kicking his dog will come to no good. People are just not that agile, as @positivelydog said on her blog, or balanced or controlled with their footwork to reposition a dog or break a focus with a lightly measured consistent repositioning movement. Maybe a soccer star would be. Same with everything he does in the punishment department on the show - choking dogs, hanging or shocking. All this stuff is taken in by Joe Blow and the fallout lands in shelters. His methods don't work with all the TV dog subjects, either. The producers want people to think Cesar can do anything, fix any dog, and that is show biz, not reality. There are many veterinary and other behaviorists that work with dogs like this everyday with great success. They are just not on tv. Shelters hire them to rehab the dogs abused by their owners because they thought they could be Cesar Millan, or were just bullys. People seem to believe only Cesar does this work, which is baffling. Some of the implements and methods he uses to train have been banned in Europe and are considered abuse. Nearly every professional association for dog behaviorists and trainers reject his methods. There are many groups now who rehab fighting dogs and they don't hang or shock the dogs they work with. I respect your comment. I once thought Cesar did good things for many dogs - times change, so do methods, we learn how to do things better for the dogs we love. Change is annoying to people who have learned a certain skillset and don't want to mess with what they believe works. Applying what has been discovered about dog behavior and psychology by scientists, better outcomes result. Thanks for offering your perspective, and I appreciate the non-confrontational way you laid out your argument.

Adam
Adam

Work for Cesar do we?

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Sometimes we get so frustrated we feel the only outlet is to call people names - but that doesn't advance the conversation at all. I think everyone here understands breaking focus, redirecting to avoid an imminent incident, or keeping strong dog aggressive dogs safe from their own behaviors. Really, if you don't just react with a knee-jerk dismissal, maybe we can find one or two points where we agree?

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

I'm an equal opportunity "don't watch TV trainers" person, so have almost zero exposure to Stilwell. But I will say there are dogs that should be killed...a very small percentage, but those who are insane and can't be managed or accepted at any sanctuary, are a danger to themselves and others should be put out of their misery. That would describe a behavioral-based euthanasia, I think, so I would have to agree. I lived with a mentally unstable dog for 4 years, who I should have euthanized after he attacked and mauled me. He would turn vicious at a look--not even vets would deal with him. Abused Afghan Hound dumped at a vet's office. Instead he lived until he died. I am not sure I see your point in this regard. Also Dunbar was likely talking about how wolf pack social interactions have been misinterpreted according to recent and varied studies on pack behavior - dominance has been wrongly defined. Not according to him, but to wolf researchers. R+ people always talk about seeing the world through a dog's eyes, using dog behavior/psychology to produce the preferred behavior, not treating dogs like humans. They are their own species to be respected as such.

Jackie
Jackie

I agree with all your comments and I hate it when things are taken out of context as these clips have. Too many people are bleeding hearts and have never handled large powerful and sometimes aggressive dogs Caesar explains to his owners where they are going wrong and attempts to help them, not advocate treating dogs as surrogate humans This is what leads to dogs becoming aggressive and neurotic.I don't think so called positive reinforcement will stop a male Alaskan Malamute from attacking an aggressive little foxie only strong discipline will have any effect and those silly harnesses are useless in controlling a dog

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Thanks for the reminder, Leo! A breeder from Norway was saying thank god for CM since apparently trainers there are not equipped to train difficult dogs and often recommend euthanization because of it. Now I know this is just one person saying this, but I thought I'd ask if you have any ongoing knowledge of trouble there. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

JACKIE WALKER
JACKIE WALKER

have you ever watched an entire episode or are you basing your opinion only on what was edited in this video, As to "one dog even kelped in pain" I have a dog that yelps if you put your foot too close to her without even touching her at all so this is just bull dust. With the number of neglected dogs in the world who are REALLY MISTREATED you should be applauding Caesar at least he never advocates putting a dog on drugs as a cure for bad behavior or worse still putting them to sleep. Most of the worlds dog owners want putting to sleep as they are the root cause of dogs being mistreated and untrained in the first place. NOT ALL DOGS RESPOND TO THE SOFT METHODS AND FOOD BASED SO CALLED POSITIVE TRAINING

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Thanks for your thoughts, and welcome Kathy. That is where my concern lies - that this is on TV where unskilled people, some full of themselves thinking they know it all because they watched the series and that qualifies them somehow, others who like hitting and bullying in general as a natural part of their everyday lives. We see the results in shelters. None of these "techniques" should be put on display for mass consumption. And another thing, why is CMs show the only one with warning signs?

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Somehow I knew that link would hit you as it did me...revelatory, and great that hornblower shared it. Thanks for stopping in, Edie!

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

I am sure you are aware that veterinary and other behaviorists do this work every day. Cesar does it for the cameras and then it's over. I would think that those who have made turning around unadoptable dogs their life's work should be held in high esteem, but seem to be totally disrespected by some commenters here. Thanks for adding your two cents, Jen, and welcome.

mnoyes83
mnoyes83

Obviously you have never read or seen any of the work done by the trainers mentioned! The first thing they will tell you is that they are mostly training the OWNERS. And lets not forget that most of these trainers have years if not decades of science and education behind them while CM has a very nice haircut/look and a tv show because his image sells. His methods aren't just dangerous because of his "training" tools (i.e. kicking, jerking, hanging) it's also dangerous because then you have the inexperienced owners continuing to use them after just one meeting with a "trainer". You say humans use their hands and feet all the time, If someone even lightly kicks you to get you to do what they want what part of your mind tells you "OH..I deserved that, THANKS"

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Yet the point here remains the same and no one who supports Millan's methods is responding. Why does Millan use antiquated methods from the 1930's that would get someone arrested for animal cruelty today? I do know the difference between a kick and a nudge - there were two nudges in that video set, and the rest were kicks, one to the groin. I don't know why you think that is not a kick, or that those where you can hear the dog wince and see the dog moved somehow don't count. None of the people in the positive reinforcement arena blame the dog's behavior on the dog. The only goofy people who do that are those that legislate breed specific laws. I take it you have never seen any of the people you listed who practice positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement does include negative repercussions, although I am not sure of the technical term, so you may not have looked into this topic long enough to get the whole picture. I'll put it down to the hour of day along with that rather wild charge of killing dogs that don't fit into their approach which is without foundation.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Hi Phil, and welcome - I appreciate your comment. It's hard to understand how people can watch something like that series of video clips and see it from completely opposite perspectives..

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

I agree and thanks for joining i the conversation, dogalini!

calmassertive
calmassertive

Ah, isn't denial a wonderful thing? How warm and fuzzy it must make you feel as you admit that you think dogs your reinforcement-only approach can't handle should just be killed. You whine about Millan using his feet to redirect a misbehaving dog and within minutes solving years of owner-caused problems yet you proudly proclaim that you yourself could not only not even handle your Own dog but that you would feel justified in killing your Own dog simply because he had no respect for you whatsoever. The hypocrisy of the cookie-stuffing crowd never ceases to amaze, and disappoint, me. Fortunately the National Geographic channel has seen fit to broadcast Millan's show wherein those paying attention can see how very sad and very wrong those such as you in denial can be.

Adam
Adam

Might I suggest reading Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. Its an interest book where only positive reinforcement methods are used to re-educate an aggressive dog. Oh and I might suggest, as I did previously with someone else, Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. In this book the pros and cons of all training types are discussed in detail. Its a nice read too.

calmassertive
calmassertive

Just for the record, here is a link to a site wherein thousands of Denmark fans are begging for Millan to come to their city as part of his European tour. They're doing this because of the success his fans in Winnipeg, Canada had in doing the same thing. Thousands of fans requested he appear in Winnipeg, so many in fact that when they found out he was coming they sold out the first show and Millan added a Second show to meet the demand. Denmark, not even a native English-speaking country, looks like it too will end up getting Millan to add a city to his justifiably, wildly-popular tour. http://www01.eventful.com/demand/cesar-millan-dog...

kenzo_hw
kenzo_hw

Never heard of it and difficult to imagine that it could be true. Did he provide some links to newsarticles? Unfortunately the Norwegian national TV channel has aired CM for years giving him a lot of supporters. Still a lot of people, as well as official institutions like animal welfare and trainer organisations, are trying to get him off the air. Norway has one of the most fargoing animal rights/abuse legislations in the world. Like in Denmark, any "training tools" that could harm the dog (like shock collars) are forbidden. Dog lovers in Norway trying to get CM off the air are looking forward to a law change that is expected this year, that will also forbid to promote or disseminate these training methods. That would make it illegal to air his show in Norway or host his "Tour".

Dynadobe
Dynadobe

Perhaps you're not listening? Some of those 'antiquated' methods are still valuable today when working a dog that has behavioral problems. Those are NOT kicks! I use the toe nudge myself and it is fantastic for snapping a dog back to the task at hand. This is not inhumane. Cesar himself says he does not TRAIN dogs. These are methods for modifying behavior when all else has failed. He has an amazing knowledge of dogs, and dogs 'get' him because he uses body language, which is the language dogs use. The play behaviors my dogs employ when playing with each other are far more abusive, and they take no offense. As for training, positive is good, but some dogs require corrections also. They vary widely and a good trainer knows which tools to use. One quick correction can eliminate hours of 'nagging' the dog. The all positiive mustn't upset my dog training is the biggest reason we have dogs dumped in shelters for behavioral problems. And the biggest reason dogs become dangerous.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Thank you, Adam! This is great:)

Adam
Adam

I currently have them saved to disc as .pdf files. Should you wish for me to send them across I can do so. The paper that is most interesting is a 2004 paper titled 'Dog training methods: their use, effectiveness and interaction with behaviour and welfare'. In this it is concluded that reward based methods are more effective long term with less problematic behaviours being displayed.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Adam, thanks so much for popping in here and putting the conversation back on track. I think it would be a service to all if you would link to the papers or Journals you mention, so feel free!

Adam
Adam

I think the use of the word hypocrisy is probably misplaced here in all honesty. I don't for one moment think that MaryHaight is being a hypocrite in her blog. As for Cesar Millan, can I please suggest you take a look at the bigger picture. Cesar is single person who through very little in the way of talent managed to make it onto screens around the world spreading his views and insisting that we must all act a pack leader. The latest scientific research would argue that the domestic dog is equally as far from a Wolf as we are from Apes. Similar genetic make up sure, but, very different social requirements. Dogs evolved and became man's best friend through a series of events and many of the leaders in this field believe that the domestic dog was indeed a solitary animal living close to Human settlements as a scavenger. Similar to street dogs across the globe and NOT a pack animal as Cesar and many others seem to believe. If we look at the social structure of the 'modern' street dog we can safely assume that their is no dominance or 'alfa'. The study that first employed the term 'alfa' was written back in 1968 and published in 1970 by a L. David Mech and he himself, as a scientist, has requested that the paper no longer be published as some of the paper is incorrect by today's understanding. This was a study done on captive Wolves which behave completely different from a pack out in the wild. I have a selection of scientific papers that I am happy to share that outline the long term effects of using Cesars 'dominance' style of training, should you care to take a look. Regards,

calmassertive
calmassertive

Speaking of skimming, as Millan points out, when you find yourself pointing at someone, remember, there are 3 fingers pointing back at you... I never said you killed your dog, I said you felt you Would have been justified in killing your own dog. You said you "should have euthanized" him, and that dogs that "can't be managed" should be "put out of their misery". To me this is the true hypocrisy of the reinforcement-only crowd, condemning Millan as abusive while at the same time readily recommending that dogs Millan routinely rehabilitates should instead be subjected to the ultimate abuse of being killed. The intellectual dishonesty is shameful. In fact, I'm beginning to suspect you didn't make the video yourself -- am I right? An 'equal-opportunity' non-viewer, as you put it so proudly.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

I see your problem now - you skim, *you do not read* what people are actually saying. That is what leads you to the many wrong conclusions you have come to about R+. I clearly said the dog was dumped at a vet's office. We paid the bill and brought him home instead of leaving him to die - which was when he attacked me. Four years later he died a natural death. So no, I did not "kill my own dog" You apparently believe that *no* dog should be killed, vicious or not, and you believe Cesar can save all dogs, insane or not. Now *that* really is denial. This was in the mid 80's so not much around in the way of R+. If you slow down and stop looking to accuse people, you might take in more facts to respond in a way that makes sense according to the content of the conversation, rather than going off on some unrelated diatribe.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

Um, nothing there about Denmark...you must have the wrong information or the wrong link. I doubt the"clamor" from a country that outlaws his methods. His May appearance was cancelled.

MaryHaight
MaryHaight

I guess calmassertive has no answer for you. I checked it out, nothing but a page for CM with a two-thousand something number in a box, but nothing about Denmark.

kenzo_hw
kenzo_hw

The link doesn't lead to anything showing something about Denmark, neither does it it lead to thousands of fans. Let alone a single one. Maybe you misunderstood: his tour was planned to stop by Denmark, but was cancelled due to the massive protests that evolved after his promotion visit. Anyway, his methods are by law forbidden in Denmark, not much reason to discuss if he should visit or not, I'll sue him if he shows his face.

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