Comments on: Animal Lawyers, Swiss Vote No http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/ a friendly voice - an expansive view Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:47:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1 By: MaryHaight http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2995 MaryHaight Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:54:38 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2995 Oh yes, now I remember...I gotta get more sleep!! As to the trouble of enforcement of Swiss like ordinances here with the vast population differences, enforcement of any law is tough with 300M. But there are interesting programs like the cross-reporting law in Chicago: When the police are called out on abuse cases they report to animal care and control to take the animals out of harm's way, and the reverse occurs where there is animal abuse in a home and animal care and control report it to the police. These types of devices can be put to work with good results. I think rather than give up thinking it can't happen here, and, yes, it is a complicated and daunting task, we could take a piece at a time and see where there are areas of opportunity to begin:) Oh yes, now I remember…I gotta get more sleep!! As to the trouble of enforcement of Swiss like ordinances here with the vast population differences, enforcement of any law is tough with 300M. But there are interesting programs like the cross-reporting law in Chicago: When the police are called out on abuse cases they report to animal care and control to take the animals out of harm's way, and the reverse occurs where there is animal abuse in a home and animal care and control report it to the police. These types of devices can be put to work with good results. I think rather than give up thinking it can't happen here, and, yes, it is a complicated and daunting task, we could take a piece at a time and see where there are areas of opportunity to begin:)

]]> By: veryvizsla http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2993 veryvizsla Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:14:42 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2993 Premarin is a BIG business in Alberta. It's not made from the placenta of the mare, but from the collection from the mare's urine. Hence (Pre)gnant (mar)e Ur(in)e. The mares are kept in standing stalls and have a rubber collection harness strapped to their backsides. Once the foals are born, they are sent to auction where most of them go to the meat man. My girlfriend bought 4 PMU babies for riding horses and they are doing great. Premarin benefits a lot of postmenopausal women, so it really is a catch 22. I really do like the Swiss ordinance, but Switzerland has a population of 7 million people. To enforce and supervise the Swiss laws in a place like Canada (30 million) or the US (300+ million) would be nearly impossible with out the addition of hundreds, if not thousands of animal welfare agents. Since North American welfare agencies have problems monitoring the family lives of children at risk, this just isn't going to happen. It's nice to think about, though. Premarin is a BIG business in Alberta. It's not made from the placenta of the mare, but from the collection from the mare's urine. Hence (Pre)gnant (mar)e Ur(in)e. The mares are kept in standing stalls and have a rubber collection harness strapped to their backsides. Once the foals are born, they are sent to auction where most of them go to the meat man. My girlfriend bought 4 PMU babies for riding horses and they are doing great. Premarin benefits a lot of postmenopausal women, so it really is a catch 22.

I really do like the Swiss ordinance, but Switzerland has a population of 7 million people. To enforce and supervise the Swiss laws in a place like Canada (30 million) or the US (300+ million) would be nearly impossible with out the addition of hundreds, if not thousands of animal welfare agents. Since North American welfare agencies have problems monitoring the family lives of children at risk, this just isn't going to happen. It's nice to think about, though.

]]> By: MaryHaight http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2986 MaryHaight Sun, 14 Mar 2010 08:13:53 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2986 Hey, Karen, thanks for stopping in! Yes, I agree with you and Edie...but academically I also see what they are trying to do by applying law equally across all events. Talk about setting yourself up to fail, though! Glad you read the ordinance--I was happy to have it to offer up. Yeah, thinking about why milk is actually produced...from pregnancy...so they get to be in a constant state of pregnancy in order to produce, with the calves as a by-product? That's what they do to mares or maybe that practice is ending now, but to make a medication(premerin), they had to take stuff from the placenta to make it, if I'm remembering correctly..and the foals were "tossed" eeeuuuuu We do a lot of crazy stuff to animals that science may soon be able to redress. Hey, Karen, thanks for stopping in! Yes, I agree with you and Edie…but academically I also see what they are trying to do by applying law equally across all events. Talk about setting yourself up to fail, though!

Glad you read the ordinance–I was happy to have it to offer up. Yeah, thinking about why milk is actually produced…from pregnancy…so they get to be in a constant state of pregnancy in order to produce, with the calves as a by-product? That's what they do to mares or maybe that practice is ending now, but to make a medication(premerin), they had to take stuff from the placenta to make it, if I'm remembering correctly..and the foals were "tossed" eeeuuuuu
We do a lot of crazy stuff to animals that science may soon be able to redress.

]]> By: veryvizsla http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2983 veryvizsla Sun, 14 Mar 2010 05:47:38 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2983 Okay, my response. It's a FISH! I must say that the Swiss Ordinance is very impressive. Kudos to them!! I must say that article 18 regarding stanchion systems is interesting. They actually demand that their dairy cows are able to roam freely for 90 days out of the year. (that's a little tongue in cheek ya'll) Betcha' didn't know that dairy cattle spend most of their lives in a standing stall. Since the Swiss make most of their living with dairy products I suppose that giving the cattle a little roaming time is okay. And I'm not anti-dairy products, just wanted to let everyone know how it goes. I know people in the dairy industry here in Canada & as long as the heifer is producing milk, she's in the stall. Okay, my response. It's a FISH!

I must say that the Swiss Ordinance is very impressive. Kudos to them!! I must say that article 18 regarding stanchion systems is interesting. They actually demand that their dairy cows are able to roam freely for 90 days out of the year. (that's a little tongue in cheek ya'll) Betcha' didn't know that dairy cattle spend most of their lives in a standing stall. Since the Swiss make most of their living with dairy products I suppose that giving the cattle a little roaming time is okay. And I'm not anti-dairy products, just wanted to let everyone know how it goes. I know people in the dairy industry here in Canada & as long as the heifer is producing milk, she's in the stall.

]]> By: Rod@GoPetFriendly http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2979 Rod@GoPetFriendly Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:23:38 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2979 BTW - does the license apply to pets? Do you need a license to obtain a pet in Switzerland? I think I like that idea! BTW – does the license apply to pets? Do you need a license to obtain a pet in Switzerland? I think I like that idea!

]]> By: Rod@GoPetFriendly http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2978 Rod@GoPetFriendly Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:21:40 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2978 I think the thing with the fish is over the top. Just the way I feel. The journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step. To me that first step is pets. Then animals raised for food (I'm about 90% vegetarian). Then fish. It's not that I don't think all life is precious - I'm just all for protecting the most endangered first (pets) with the limited resources we have. I think the thing with the fish is over the top. Just the way I feel. The journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step. To me that first step is pets. Then animals raised for food (I'm about 90% vegetarian). Then fish. It's not that I don't think all life is precious – I'm just all for protecting the most endangered first (pets) with the limited resources we have.

]]> By: MaryHaight http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2010/03/animal-lawyers-swiss-vote-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2944 MaryHaight Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:31:36 +0000 http://www.dancingdogblog.com/?p=3530#comment-2944 I knew that about American Humane, but now that you mention it in the context of this post, I better understand their position. Beyond it being a mission premise for AH, it is a legal response they are giving, isn't it. Equal protection under the law. The law often will not judge in favor of separate treatment. Goetschel argued for the client, the fish, so his argument follows the legal path set forth by Swiss law on no pain or suffering, the case turning on that point where science has to offer it's findings to conclude the case. Huh, doesn't seem so out in left field when you look at it from that narrow perspective. Often, however, the quest for congruency or trying to make all things equal in the search for simplicity doesn't pan out in real time and can lead down some pretty dark alleys. But that's beyond the scope of this blog:) I knew that about American Humane, but now that you mention it in the context of this post, I better understand their position. Beyond it being a mission premise for AH, it is a legal response they are giving, isn't it. Equal protection under the law. The law often will not judge in favor of separate treatment. Goetschel argued for the client, the fish, so his argument follows the legal path set forth by Swiss law on no pain or suffering, the case turning on that point where science has to offer it's findings to conclude the case. Huh, doesn't seem so out in left field when you look at it from that narrow perspective. Often, however, the quest for congruency or trying to make all things equal in the search for simplicity doesn't pan out in real time and can lead down some pretty dark alleys. But that's beyond the scope of this blog:)

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